So I have an 1850 Singles Tournament next month and am having a fair amount of trouble deciding on a semi-final list. I was feeling good about a couple of them, but played parking-log IG tonight and had a lot of trouble with them. Actually I played them twice. First time we called it after he blew up all my tanks turn 1 before I got to move. Then we played again, wherein I made a game of it and we finished more or less in a draw. Minor victory for me maybe. The question is: how to build a DE all-comers list that can handle IG.
A couple of lists to contemplate for my playstyle:
List 1
HQ
Asdrubael Vect
Archon w/SF, Agonizer, Drugs, PGL
TROOPS
5x Warriors w/Blaster in Venom w/2x Cannons
5x Warriors w/Blaster in Venom w/2x Cannons
10x Wyches w/2x Shardnets, Hekatrix w/Agonizer in Raider w/NS, FF
10x Wyches w/2x Shardnets, Hekatrix w/Agonizer in Raider w/NS, FF
ELITES
7x Incubi in Raider w/FF, NS
3x Trueborn w/3 Blasters in Venom w/2x Cannons
HEAVY SUPPORT
3x Ravager w/NS, FF
List 2
HQ
Asdrubael Vect
Archon w/SF, Agonizer, Drugs, PGL
TROOPS
5x Warriors w/Blaster in Raider w/NS, FF
5x Warriors w/Blaster in Venom w/2x Cannons
5x Warriors w/Blaster in Venom w/2x Cannons, Grisly Trophies
5x Warriors w/Blaster in Venom w/2x Cannons, Grisly Trophies
ELITES
8x Incubi, Klaivex w/Murderous Assault in Raider w/FF, NS, TGL
9x Bloodbrides w/3x Shardnets, Syren w/Agonizer in Raider w/FF, NS, TGL
HEAVY SUPPORT
3x Ravager w/NS, FF
So the real question is: how to build a list that will both be semi-balanced, as well as giving me a chance against IG. Particularly the Chimera parking lot with supporting vehicles (manticore, vendetta, etc), autocannon troops, and melta vets. Granted, today was at 1500 points with a bit of a different list, but I really don't know the direction to take to handle this. Turn 1 seemed to be not just important but absolutely critical to even stand a chance.
HELP!?!
The easiest way I can think of is to give your Wyches Haywire grenades, then have them multi-assault the Chimeras and whatnot.
ReplyDeleteYeah I did manage to pull that off in the 2nd game which helped a lot, but also killed off all of the Wyches. The question is: do I make one a throw away unit with just Haywires? Or do I make the big points investment?
ReplyDeleteThe last few tournaments here have been 1850 and I've placed 1 and 2nd in the last 2 with this list, I don't know how well it fits your playstyle/models had but it suits mine and is hard as $#%!. Also if your short on the models I'd be glad to show you a few conversions that'll get you what you need/save you tons of cash.
ReplyDeleteHQ
Haemonculus w/ Agonizer
Haemonculus w/ Agonizer
TROOPS
10 Wracks w/ 2 Liq. guns in Raider
10 Wracks w/ 2 Liq. guns in Raider
7 Wytches w/ Hek. with Agonizer in Raider
7 Wytches w/ Hek. with Agonizer in Raider
ELITES
3 Trueborn w/ 3 Blasters in venom w/ 2 S Cannons
3 Trueborn w/ 3 Blasters in venom w/ 2 S Cannons
3 Trueborn w/ 3 Blasters in venom w/ 2 S Cannons
HEAVY SUPPORT
Ravager
Ravager
Ravager
FAST ATTACK
5 Scourges w/ 2 Heat Lances
5 Scourges w/ 2 Heat Lances
I've done well repeatedly against guard sw and ba with this list, honestly the only thing that gives this alot of trouble is eldar in my experience.
Also you need to keep your stuff cheap dont go balls out with upgrades on your vehicles they are a gun strapped to an engine, they will be shot down. If youve got points FF on ravagrs is ok but other than that the only upgrades you should be spending ppoints on is the 2nd cannon on venoms, always.
ReplyDeleteThanks for all the input!
ReplyDeleteIDK about adding in Scourges/Wracks just yet as I'd rather wait until their new models come out before I go balls-out converting just to get shown up by GW and buy them all anyways. I like the looks of your list though Mizzrym. Lean, mean, mon-keigh killing machine.
I'm not a huge fan of anything other than NS/FF usually, it was more of a "I have 20 points left over how should I use it?" scenario. Also, the TGL I find is useful particularly with your forward assault units to help prevent them from being gang-assaulted by units that have trouble downing your raiders. Only if you have the 5 points kicking around though.
What're your thoughts on adding in a unit of heatlance Reavers? A bit more expensive and fragile than the Scourges but adds that extra unit for the enemy to worry about and some tank-busting power.
I think scourges > reavers any day except in some non mech lists, the scourges footprint for deepstriking those HL's into the enemy is so small and easy to get the 9" melta range. Also I think the TGL's would be great with shock prows but only on raiders you dont really intend on putting/keeping the guys in for more than a turn or so.
ReplyDeleteUse haywire grenades and lots of wyches in raiders moving flat out. How you deploy and move to attack and threaten and pressure and not allow his whole army to shoot at each target etc is how you win vs IG.
ReplyDeleteIf you are going to spam lances, dont mess around, but other armies spam better with more sticky armies. Heat lances sound great but end up less than what you want/need.
Thought i saw your venoms at adepticon.
I like List 1 best. I would say spend less points on Incubi. Drop Warriors for more wyches or wracks. You dont need flickerfields on wych raiders, they move flat out for the 4+. Wyches should have haywires, you have the points. It doubles thier value on the battlefield or more. They are the most reliable anti-tank in the army.
ReplyDeleteVect not needed, your not really spamming lances to get the best use from him, and he is a pt sink. Get Haemoculous for the wyches instead.
Ravagers only need 1 flickerfield, 2 at Most, at least 1 can get a coversave from something else. Plenty of pts for haywires and haemies.
Night shields are cool and useful, Grisly trophies probably more vital. Dont let those wych units run away. Nightshields really seem like an anti-melta/anti-bolter for raiders that need it. Wych raiders dont, they go flat out to where they can assault something or manythings if even they get popped, and they will.
Think about the Venoms. Seems to me like a mismatch of missions. I run venoms with wrack units. Kill infantry stay away from tanks. That trueborn venom has got to be doomed like everygame, how often is it pounding away at something?
Warrior Venom blaster units are meh. With 4 or maybe 5 troops, are you really willing to just throw your troops away for 1 or 2 lance shots on something? Im not!
Thanks for the advice ShotDownMind.
ReplyDeleteI don't know if you've gotten the chance to look more at the blog, but I've got a more finalized list I've been using for some time posted in the IG battle reports that has worked out quite well for me, including 2nd place at a 30-man tournament only due to some truly abysmal luck on the dice in my final game.
I agree on a number of your points, including the fact that Vect really isn't needed. He's a beast, but a little pricey at this points range and, as you said, the list isn't optimized to take advantage of what he can give you.
I agree with you on the point that Night Shields are more a luxury than a necessity. Fun to play shenanigans with some armies at times, but agains the real players they really aren't going to save you from what you should really be worrying about (Missiles, Autocannons, etc.)
As you'll read, I've become a huge fan of Haywire Wyches. Really not overly concerned if they get liquified by explosions and such as at that point they've already done their job by mangling/stunning enemy vehicles and setting up the rest of my force.
As far as the Venoms go, they've really helped put the pressure on my opponent in a number of games. Even the trueborn venom, which I would think would be a prime target, gets passed up for shots at Ravagers and Raiders full of Incubi/Wyches. The Venoms I've found to be very effective wound-dumpers while staying just low enough on the threat meter to be a secondary target to the other things in the list. Depending on my opponent, deployment, and terrain, I've found it useful to sometimes almost squadron the Venoms to maximize their localized anti-tank threat while throwing poisoned shots downfield. The Trueborn are one more way to get some (relatively) cheap anti-tank into my list.
Additionally, if they're wasting shots on the trueborn, they're not shooting at Ravagers/Raiders =)
I agree that the Warrior Venoms are a bit meh. 3x Wracks may be a bit more points-efficient, but I've got enough on my plate modeling-wise without trying to figure out how to convert up some wracks, which I'm sure I'll want to ditch as soon as the GW models come out. So, for now, it's warriors with an "oh shit" Blaster just in case there's something that I absolutely need to shoot at when all else fails (as happened in my second IG BatRep, despite them then running away!) They oftentimes go most of the game without pushing forward enough to fire the Blaster. It's more just to give tanks a half of a reason to think about getting close.